Hi Bogleheads,For 2007 my wife and I will register Married Filing Jointly and our itemized deductions (~$13,000) will not greatly exceed the standard deduction ($10,700). The bulk of our deductions come from mortgage interest ($7,300 annually) on our primary home and real estate tax for this same domiciliate ($3,700 annually). Some additional deductions (e g sales tax charitable donations etc) make up the be. Our property tax payment is due on January 31 but in the past I have always paid in December to claim the deduction in the same year. My question is would we benefit with the following scheme?Pay our 2007 property tax bill in Jan 2008 (since we get very little benefit by itemizing in 2007). Pay our 2008 property tax bill in Dec 2008. Claim standard deduction in 2007. Claim itemized deduction in 2008 claiming 2 years of property taxes (2007 & 2008) as deductions in 2008. Repeat. Alternating between standard/itemized deductions in subsequent odd/even years. I've ran the numbers for 2007/2008 and I think we would save a few hundred dollars over the course of the next two years (vs itemizing in 2007 & 2008). This approach increases our tax liability in 2007 but it reduces it by a greater amount in 2008 thus resulting in an overall net reduction in tax paid. Seems that this would be useful for anyone whose itemized deductions are only marginally higher than the standard deduction. Essentially you sacrifice a small benefit of itemizing in one year to realize a larger benefit in the following year and this can be repeated over and over. Is this a valid approach e g legal?Is there any potential downside to this approach? Any potential "gotchas"? I've heard of people "shifting" mortgage payments for similar purposes (though in the other direction) but can this sort of thing also be done with property tax payments? I realize I would need to keep running the numbers in subsequent years to account for changes to make sure it's still worthwhile when life events (e g baby wife stops working) change our tax situation but other than that can you folks think of any other problems with this?If it matters we live in a state with no state income tax. I searched the web and was unable to find any articles discussing an approach like this which makes me thing there must be some flaw in my thinking.
So you would use for example. TurboTax 2007 to plan 2007 taxes but how do you plan for 2008 taxes (to 'run the numbers' for bunching)? Do you just use the 2007 version of the software to get an approximate idea of what the cause will be in 2008 assuming no other major changes?I've got my own little spreadsheet (developed over some years) which does take into account published IRS tax info for 2008 but if there's a more accurate/automated way to do this I'm all ears.
On TurboTax. I just use whatever version I have available at the time I make my decisions. Now I undergo only the 2006 version but I'm sure someone will get me 2007 soon. Anyways it's close enough and easy to use. If you make enough income and overbunch you may be subject to AMT (but probably not). Note also that with property taxes you can probably split the payment across two years. We had to do that to avoid AMT. Bunching can even help folks who itemize every year if their income is variable. For example maybe you got a bigger bonus at your job or you got a bigger mutual fund distribution than you expected. Or maybe you are gonna be retired next year and have a much lower income.
ramblinwreck,I have been using this tax reduction technique for the last 28 years. I ran it past a CPA before I started and got his blessing. You can shift many deductable items. For example you can bunch charitable gifts into alternative years. As you have open real estate taxes can also be bunched. Even one month's mortgage payment can be shifted so you have 11 payments in one year and 13 the next (you are not allowed to shift more interest than this). If you have high medical expenditures they can also be bunched. You do not need any fancy analysis to do this. As long as you can get below the standard deduction when you do not itemize and are above the standard deduction when you do you are coming out ahead. If the amount of your deductions is normally more than the standard deduction the amount of gain is the difference between the standard deduction and your deductable items in the year in you do not identify. For example if the standard deduction is $10,900 and you can get your deductable items down to $8,900 you will gain $2000 in deductions by using the standard. For the 25% bracket this will save you $500. The higher the standard deduction the better it works. beat wishes,JeffBest wishes,Jeff
I plan to do this too. But I thought I'd read that it's not kosher to shift property tax paymentsthis way that they should apply to the year the tax is for. Of course it's your own business if you choose to make charitablecontribs however you choose or to incur medical expenses when youchoose. Be aware that medical expenses are deductible the year youPAY not the year the service is rendered (or so I've read). I'm not sure if I saw this mentioned here but you can (within reason,you don't want to qualify for any penalties !) do the same thing with statetaxes. In other words way under-withhold the year you expect to usethe standard deduction and then you have a big tax-due bill the followingyear which you can deduct !
Rambling. I see your proposed action done all the time as I do remove volunteer tax preparation services for the VITA and AARP Tax-Aide programs. In fact. I even suggest it for the appropriate circumstances. And since you live in a state with no income tax don't forget the Schedule A itemized deduction for express and local sales tax expires this tax year (2007) under current law. Don't know if it will be enacted again for next year right now. I guess it might but Congress does funny things sometimes. For the mortgage payment you can only take the interest amount for the month you actually pay it. If you take 13 payments this year you can only take 11 next year. Property taxes are only deductible in the year you actually pay them but as you mentioned doubling up in one year and skipping the itemized deduction next year is fine._________________Tom D.
I have been doing this the last 3-4 years. Most of my deductions are charitable contributions which are easily bumped into the next year. Since I'm only in the 15% bracket this year (thank you tax-payers) it is a no-brainer for me to bump my charitable contributions into next year when I'll be in the 25% bracket. I figure I'll come out about $1000 ahead. I give up $8000 worth of deductions above the standard deduction this year (at 15%) and obtain about $9000 next year (at 25%). I did something similar last year._________________1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the courseLast edited by EmergDoc on Fri Nov 30. 2007 11:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
Note that this trick won't work in reverse; if you over-withhold your state taxes and deduct them your refund the next year will be taxable. But independent of deductions it's a good strategy to withhold only as much from your taxes as you need to avoid a penalty (provided that you can legally affirm enough withholding exemptions); you will earn interest on the rest of the payment until next April 15 and processing delays won't hold up your refund. If you get a tax refund and it isn't due to unexpected end-of-year events you should decrease your withholding or estimated tax._________________David Grabiner
wreck,I've also been bunching deductions. In my case for the last 6 years. Since we're both retired and undergo no tax withholding or escrow the bunching is significant. I get two entire years of express income taxes property taxes and charitable donations into one year. The only gotcha I've run into is making sure that you get good documentation of the payments you make. My state has in the past credited my income tax payment to the wrong tax year posted it after the end of the calendar year then sent that incorrect info to the IRS. It was a bit of a hassle to change posture out. Make copies of what you displace and send it certified mail (or at least get a proof of mailing). P. S. My wife sends a greeting to ramblinwreck: GO DAWGS!
jeffy,It's tougher to do if you're working and state taxes are withheld. I'm retired so that isn't an issue for me. Here's how I would implement it if I were still working:Assume 2007 is a "bunched" year. 2008 is a standard deduction year.1. Figure out your estimated state tax liability for 2008.2. Figure out how much you can legally reduce state tax withholding from your paycheck in 2008.3. Pay the difference between 1 and 2 to the state in December 2007 using the 2008 estimated tax forms.4. Deduct the amount paid in 3 as well as all state taxes withheld during 2007 on your 2007 tax return.
No but you can use this "trick" in another way. Say you are in a high tax bracket this year but expect to be in a lower bracket next year. alter a large estimated tax payment in December to your state. Deduct this full amount as part of your state tax deductions for Federal Tax - in the high bracket year. Next year you claim the refund as part of your Federal Tax - but you are in a lower bracket. You lose three or four months of "time value" of the overpayment to the State but you gain the difference in tax rates. I did this in 1982. I was working full time (in Virginia) in 1981 but had been accepted to Graduate School to enroll in 1982. So I vastly overpaid my state taxes in 1981 and got the full deduction. Then in 1982 I had to claim my express refund as income for Federal. But I was a student with almost no income and I paid $0 Federal tax in 1982. Easy as that. Of course many people won't have the dramatic swing in tax rates that I had but bunching deductions is a great way to take advantage of differing tax rates. Best wishes._________________Andy
jeffy,It's tougher to do if you're working and state taxes are withheld. I'm retired so that isn't an issue for me. Here's how I would implement it if I were still working:Assume 2007 is a "bunched" year. 2008 is a standard deduction year.1. Figure out your estimated state tax liability for 2008.2. Figure out how much you can legally reduce state tax withholding from your paycheck in 2008.3. Pay the difference between 1 and 2 to the state in December 2007 using the 2008 estimated tax forms.4. calculate the amount paid in 3 as well as all state taxes withheld during 2007 on your 2007 tax return.
Seems that I have been leaving about $1200 on the table since we paid off the accommodate and started this bunching. It appears to me that it does not matter how much is witheld in a year that you itemize as the refund would be taxable the following year anyway (Assuming no tax rate differences). So the key is to under-withhold but then pay in advance for the standard deduction year during the itemizing year correct?Next year is an itemizing year for me and it is too late to do anything about 2007. Typically we undergo over withholding because I have never bothered to file a separate state version of the W4 form to get this closer to reality. Can I use use the "apply refund to next year's tax" option to accomplish the same goal by alternating between appling the refund to taxes and taking it in cash?edit:After further review. I think the "apply refund to next year" idea does not accomplish anything. The key seems to be that in the year you itemize you must pay some of the following year's taxes.. a year in which you do not itemize._________________Jeffy
That was my point. The previous poster suggested a strategy which would bring home the bacon if you bunch deductions. Under-withhold your state taxes in 2007 (but withhold enough to avoid paying a penalty) and don't itemize in 2007. Then in 2008 pay the tax as due in April; your 2008 payment of 2007 taxes is deductible in 2008. That strategy works but you can't benefit in the other direction; if you over-withhold in 2008 you can deduct that from your 2008 income but will pay tax on the refund received in 2009. In contrast most bunching of deductions gives you a benefit in both directions. If you plan to take the standard deduction in 2007 and itemize in 2008 you can wait to make this year's charitable contributions until January 2008 and then pay your January 2009 property tax bill in December 2008._________________David Grabiner
Correct though I wouldn't say "underwithholding" is desirable. The way I look at it. I be to make sure that in the itemizing year. I withhold or make estimated payments of my entire tax liability for both the current year and the next year (when I'll take the std deduction). What I don't want to happen is to value the eventual taxes due and have to make a payment during my standard deduction tax year which would be non-deductible. I think you've got the idea but I'll throw out an example for anyone else that's interested in the mechanics.1. My itemizing years are 2007 and 2009. Std deduction in 2008 and 2010.2. Assume my state taxes property taxes and charitable deductions are all 4,000 per year for a total of 12K annually. No other deductions.3. In the 25% fed bracket those deductions are worth ~3K per year.4. All my state taxes are paid via quarterly payments -- no withholding. So far this year I've made 3 estimated payments on my 2007 state tax liability for a be of 3K. My 4th payment isn't due until 1/15/08 but I'll make it before the end of 2007 so it's deductible this year. I'll actually pay a little more than my estimate to make sure that I don't end up having a balance due with my return. Because that balance due payment wouldn't be deductible. Assume I pay $1500 for my last payment. I now have $4500 in state tax deductions for 2007. Now let's look at 2008 state taxes. I estimate them to be 4K. I pay that amount by the end of 2007 as well*. I'm not worried about paying a little extra because my last quarterly payment for 2008 is due 1/15/09. 2009 is another bunching year so if I have a pay a little in that last quarter I'll still get to deduct it. Now my total state tax deductions for 2007 are 8.5K (4.5 + 4). To finish up. I double up on my charitable contributions and property taxes before the end of 2007. 8K of deductions for each. So my total itemized deductions in 2007 are 24.5K worth ~6.125K in reduced '07 taxes. Next spring I get a $500 refund for the extra 2007 state taxes I paid. Costs me ~$125 in 2008 federal taxes. I take the standard deduction of 10K (assumed) and end up with a net tax benefit in 2008 of 2.375K. Total tax benefit over the 2 years is 8.5K (6.125+2.375). If I hadn't bunched the deductions. I'd have deducted 12K each year for a total tax benefit of 6K over the 2 years. So bunching netted me 2.5K less the interest I forgo from paying all these things in advance. Note this is exactly the tax benefit of the standard deduction since I was able to perfectly bunch the deductions (i e. I made no tax-deductible payments in my standard deduction year). So the max benefit from bunching (assuming constant tax rates) is TR*Std Deduction where TR is your marginal rate. Less foregone arouse cost which shouldn't be ignored.* Note it would be smarter to try to pay just 3/4 of the 2008 state taxes in 2007 plus a small modify since the 4th payment can be in 2009. Keeps the money in your hands longer.
For someone who works. I meant under withholding to the extent you can. For example if my annual state income tax bill is $5000 and the state says I must withhold at least 90%. I could get my withholding down to $4500 and pay the $500 extra for the non itemizing year during the prior year and deduct it. What I am thinking would not work is if my withholding is at $5000 (or higher) and I send in the extra $500 anyway.. for the non-itemizing year during the prior year. Or am I wrong??? If I am wrong then I could send in my entire estimated tax liability for the non-itemizing year during the prior itemizing year and deduct it even if I am subject to withholding.
. What if I have $5000 per year withheld but then in Dec 2007. I pay $5000 estimated state income tax for 2008 anyway? Then I deduct $10,000 in state income tax in 2007 but I do not get a refund. In 2008 I do not itemize and get a $5000 pay received in 2009.. but this is not taxable because I did not itemize in 2008
That's very good news! I don't believe I've seen that in the states where I've worked. Were I in your shoes I'd affirm with my employer that they ordain indeed accept an exemption from state withholding. I think they're often pretty skittish about that because of all the tax protestor nuts that declared themselves exempt in years past then later created major headaches for employers via garnished wages etc. On the other issue you raised you have to be careful about paying way too much state tax in any one year. I think the IRS can disallow your deduction if they cause you are gaming the tax system (e g paying way too much tax in a year when you're in a high bracket only to get a refund the next year when you're in a low bracket).
Thanks for the tips everybody. I just got my 2007 version of TurboTax and after running our preliminary 2007 numbers. I also ran my best guess of our 2008 numbers (i e using 2007 TT software under 2007 tax rules). In my "simulation" of 2008 if I were to "bunch deductions" by shifting just our 2007 property tax payment to into 2008 we are subject to AMT. If I don't bunch deductions (and everything else stays the same) then we are not subject to AMT. I guess we are 'on the bubble' (or very near). I expected this might happen considering our income and that we are expecting a baby in 2008 which ordain give us an additional exemption. This considers:1. These figures are being calculated under 2007 rules and various things may or will change in 2008 (various thresholds sales tax deduction expiration etc).2. This is based on 2007 rules without factoring in any possible 2007 AMT "patch" (since this is still pending). The only conclusion I can draw from this is that we are getting very close to AMT territory. Even if the patch goes through this year who knows what will happen in 2008 so I don't want to have to rely on another patch or new legislation which may 'make or break it' for us. This leads me to accept I shouldn't attempt this deduction bunching. The potentially small benefit (for us) doesn't seem to outweight the risk of addional cost and hassle of dealing with AMT. If our potential benefit were larger. I might look at things more closely. Is this conclusion reasonable considering the above information? Am I missing anything obvious?[I've probably wasted too much time looking at this due to opportunity cost but it has been a learning experience
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